IPA flavor does not last

I made an IPA with very low malt, hardly any specialty malt except for victory and munich which are not very roasty or caramely. I used a lot of hops in the boil and i used dry hops.

The first week the flavor was very good, but after two weeks the hop flavor and aroma is quite diminished and I don't really like it. I was left with a bitter beer that did not have a lot of malt flavor, nor hop flavor so it had little to enjoy for me anyway.

I plan to put back in one of the hop additions that I removed, and I will probably look at some other recipes and add some crystal 40 or something to get a better malt background. But my question is, is dry hopping flavor really so fleeting? what can i do to keep it around longer, more hops? I really like the beer the first week I thought it was great.


my recipe is here:
http://hopville.com/recipe/259269/american-ipa-recipes/newest-hop-back-mountain-modified-2010-06-13-version

I'm no ipa expert, and all who know me know I'm not a hophead, but here is what I think and know from experience:
Dry hops don't give any flavor. It's all aroma.
Pretty much anything over 30 min boil is bittering hop, and gives you only bitterness. Which is why your ipa is so bitter now. Too much for a mid 50s ale.
If you want flavor, do 10-15 min additions.
Aroma is 5 and below, including dry hopping.
I'd decrease the amount of two row, and use more Munich.

Cheers!

I would recommend just removing that 1# of victory all together, sub it with a nice American C40 or C60, so you have some residual sugar left in your beer to balance all that bitterness.

I am honestly not a huge fan of overly hopped beer either, which is why I prefer just about 1 ounce for the full length of the boil (something high in AA) and then all of the other additions when there is roughly 20 minutes left. The 20 minute mark will give good flavor and the closer to the end, 5 minutes and later, will attribute more aroma. I would recommend using more floral hops, Amarillo, Citra, Centennial and Cascade are great. If you are missing that punch of aroma, the more floral hops will help with that for sure.

And lastly I would recommend using lower AA hops for dry hopping, nothing over 10% AA ( Amarillo, Centennial, Cascade ). Generally, hoppy beers do not age well. Drink quickly! Also if you are bottling, once carbonated I would recommend immediately putting them in refrigeration. Also many pro brewers recommend adding your dry hops to the the beginning of fermentation (Sierra Nevada, Blue Point) but many homebrewers prefer to add them to the secondary.

I say to each his (or hers) own. I think whatever works for you is what you should do, which means you will have to experiment more and see what YOU like.

-Danielle

I have found hop aroma to be pretty fleeting. So if the beer is heavily dosed with bittering hops and has little or no crystal malt, when that hop aroma fades, the beer can taste harsh, too bitter, or even slightly astringent (or sourish).
I would agree with Danielle and Dimik.... Use more Munich malt, less 2-row, and whether or not you keep the Victory malt, definitely add at least one pound of crystal malt to balance all those high alpha bittering hops you've got in there.
And consider using a little less bittering hop additions, and go crazy with the aroma hop additions.... but try to avoid using columbus and other such high alpha hops for the late additions. Particularly avoid them for the dry hop additions. I wouldn't use anything higher than 10 to 11% alpha acid for the dry hopping.
Highly hopped beers do last long as far as being well "preserved" because of the aseptic effect of hops, but the aroma will not last long. Once the beer hits its peak, you will want to refrigerate it and enjoy it quickly!
I am only speaking from what I've experienced... to each his or her own is always the best policy.

Are your yeast still in suspension when you're dry hopping? The character resins will bind strongly to the yeast throughout the course of the dry hop, and when the yeast finally fall out of suspension, they'll take a lot of flavor with it. IME you'll have better longevity of your dry-hop character if you let as much yeast floc out as you can before dry-hopping. Cal-ale doesn't like to floc before it's refrigerated, so if you can put your carboy in a fridge for a day when you're 100% sure primary fermentation is done, you'll find the hop flavor gets taken up much more strongly by the beer. furthermore, you'll have clearer, cleaner tasting beer.

I'm going to have to disagree with above comments about dry-hopping contributing no flavor. I strongly disagree. It adds a different quality of flavor, albeit in smaller amounts than aroma, but more importantly it adds mouthfeel to a beer. The mouthfeel contribution changes the percieved flavor of the beer a lot

thatguy314 wrote:Are your yeast still in suspension when you're dry hopping? The character resins will bind strongly to the yeast throughout the course of the dry hop, and when the yeast finally fall out of suspension, they'll take a lot of flavor with it. IME you'll have better longevity of your dry-hop character if you let as much yeast floc out as you can before dry-hopping. Cal-ale doesn't like to floc before it's refrigerated, so if you can put your carboy in a fridge for a day when you're 100% sure primary fermentation is done, you'll find the hop flavor gets taken up much more strongly by the beer. furthermore, you'll have clearer, cleaner tasting beer.

I'm going to have to disagree with above comments about dry-hopping contributing no flavor. I strongly disagree. It adds a different quality of flavor, albeit in smaller amounts than aroma, but more importantly it adds mouthfeel to a beer. The mouthfeel contribution changes the percieved flavor of the beer a lot

Thanks for your comments! I usually dry hop near the end of the fermentation when things are tailing off. I don't know how many days that would be, probably 7. I could cold crash for a day first. I like that idea.

I think both of you may be right about dry hopping. I think dry hopping does add flavor, but I am finding my dry hop flavor is strong at first but fades fast. So you could say dry hopping adds little or no flavor if you open the bottle 4 weeks after sitting in the fridge. To remedy this I will try is to add more flavor additions during the boil as others have suggested and cut back on the very early additions which are only adding bitterness.

I am not unhappy with the bitterness when the hop flavor it big, I think it balances nicely. But since I am getting most of my flavor from dry hopping, it fades and then I am left with too much bitter and nothing else to balance, ie malt or anything else. but I do like the dry, not malty or carmely flavor and I don't want to add much if any crystal. At least not until i understand the hop flavor and get that right.

Thanks to everyone for their comments this had been interesting and instructive for me.

Chris

Eat Crow wrote:I have found hop aroma to be pretty fleeting. So if the beer is heavily dosed with bittering hops and has little or no crystal malt, when that hop aroma fades, the beer can taste harsh, too bitter, or even slightly astringent (or sourish).
...
And consider using a little less bittering hop additions, and go crazy with the aroma hop additions.... but try to avoid using columbus and other such high alpha hops for the late additions. Particularly avoid them for the dry hop additions. I wouldn't use anything higher than 10 to 11% alpha acid for the dry hopping.

Ok, I don't think the Columbus is adding much on the dry hop anyway. So i'll try your suggestions. I will move a lot of the hops forward to 20 minutes or less.

I love to dry hop but damn it gets expensive...

I made a Pliny the Elder clone last spring and used around 12 oz of Cent, Cascade, Columbus and Simcoe in the 6 gall batch. Generally the high-alpha hops should stay as bittering hops, but in this beer I used an ounce of columbus at 10 min, and a couple ounces in dry hop. Also used a couple ounces of Simcoe in dry hop, in addition to Cent/ Cascade. The beer was awesome - like there was a shot of grapefruit juice in there... But I also noticed the hop character faded over a couple months.

Possibly previous post re hop resins binding to yeast was a factor, b/c the hop resins definitely dropped out a bit - especially after the beer was chilled. I'll try the cold crash technique next time, bc I realize even my extended diacetyl rests don't drop much yeast out. But with this beer, my solution was to swirl some of the sediment back into the beer before opening. It can be rough and sometimes I need to pop a zantac first, but it really brings that fresh hop character back!

Dimik wrote:I'm no ipa expert, and all who know me know I'm not a hophead, but here is what I think and know from experience:
Dry hops don't give any flavor. It's all aroma.
Pretty much anything over 30 min boil is bittering hop, and gives you only bitterness. Which is why your ipa is so bitter now. Too much for a mid 50s ale.
If you want flavor, do 10-15 min additions.
Aroma is 5 and below, including dry hopping.
I'd decrease the amount of two row, and use more Munich.

Cheers!

I agree.